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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 10:07 pm 
Grand Poobah
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abdel wrote:
@Despair Yes, but he fails to do this. So to speak, he'd just seem much worse if he was a rapist trying to be a God. I mean, in any game, if the Mainchars romance is raped, as a mainchar, you'd get much more upset with him.

Image

Anyway, take a look at this stuff and say it again:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ped%29.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Meng ... imentation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture

http://torture.justsickshit.com/

http://torture.justsickshit.com/torture ... messickly/

Also read 1984 by George Orwell, especially the ending.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 11:00 pm 
Junior Acolyte

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why..?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 11:23 pm 
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abdel wrote:
why..?

What he did to <CHARNAME> and Imoen is already well beyond the moral event horizon and well into the complete monster territory.

You guys seem to be so desensitized to violence and torture that developers should start making games where all violence is replaced with rape so that the audience would see that it's violent and bad and causes suffering.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 12:55 am 
Junior Acolyte

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You're comparing Irenicus to people who did much worse torture...

Torture isn't thoroughly described, but from what you can see on the main char, he/she got hit with nonthreatening magic over a course of days. In other words, the things he did to imoen were pretty bad (Khalid being one of the things she opens up about) but it's not like she went through the worst torture in the history of all mankind.

The rape would be just extra... also, Imoen had a private cell, as opposed to Minsc and Jaheria being there. Maybe Irenicus wanted some privacy? Just a guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:49 am 
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I think assuming what the protagonist did or did not go through is a tricky situation. There is no concrete timetable for how long the party was in Chateu Irenicus, and there isn't much to go on as to what the PC went through, other than the knives you see in the beginning sequence and the magical stuff. As someone who usually plays a PC who has severe PTSD, I don't like it when the horrible stuff she likely went through is trivialized in relation to someone else's trauma. Also, since my PC is an attractive female elf, it would not make sense for Irenicus to have taken an exclusive interest in Imoen but not her, especially when it's the PC's soul he is fixated on.

So . . . I guess it's just really difficult for the modder to assume what sort of character someone else is playing, and perhaps even more difficult to write responses for so many different roleplaying types.

As for the torture vs rape issue . . . I personally think that brutal torture is just as much of a violation as sexual assault. However, I don't have an issue with it as it is in the mod.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:15 pm 
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Jazmin wrote:
I think assuming what the protagonist did or did not go through is a tricky situation. There is no concrete timetable for how long the party was in Chateu Irenicus, and there isn't much to go on as to what the PC went through, other than the knives you see in the beginning sequence and the magical stuff. As someone who usually plays a PC who has severe PTSD, I don't like it when the horrible stuff she likely went through is trivialized in relation to someone else's trauma. Also, since my PC is an attractive female elf, it would not make sense for Irenicus to have taken an exclusive interest in Imoen but not her, especially when it's the PC's soul he is fixated on.


Good point. Personally, I believe that Imoen was subjected to more torture (of many types) than the PC was -- but only because she had the misfortune to be Irenicus' "guest" for a longer period of time. If it had been the PC who was captured in Athkatla and hauled off to Spellhold, then the situation would have been totally reversed.

I think also that Irenicus would have likely "sped up" his efforts to break Imoen in Spellhold. He used her specifically as bait to get the PC to come to him, so he knew he had a finite amount of time to break Imoen and do the ritual to steal her soul. Maybe the PC showed up in 2 weeks, maybe 2 months, who knows ? But Irenicus knew the PC would be coming, and that he had to be "done" with Imoen before then. So that may have added some urgency (and some extremeness) to his techniques.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:32 pm 
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I thought Imoen would have had more torture inflicted on her due mostly to her suppression of the Bhaalspawn taint. I think Irenicus forcused more on Imoen becouse the player had already awaked Bhaalspawn powers, and us such only needed a "nudge" to be usefull, where as Imoen needed to be worked on from scratch.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:40 pm 
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i have to agree imoen would have taken longer to break do to her suppression of the bhaal taint as well as her carefree nature there for to break her in short time would require him to step up his methods where as back in his dungeon he had all the time in the world so could afford to do things slowly.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:07 pm 
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abdel wrote:
Torture isn't thoroughly described, but from what you can see on the main char, he/she got hit with nonthreatening magic over a course of days.

Charname was tortured with knives just like Imoen and both were pretty messed up because of it. The magic may be unthreatening to charname's life it's still painful and charname is still locked in the cage and completely helpless and unable to stop the abuse.

I... I know this room. I've been in here... we both have. He... There are things in these tanks. They used to be people...

What kind of monster is this guy? Captures us easy as pie, kills whoever he wants... that could have been us in those glass things.

Come on, <CHARNAME>, don't make me think of it. He did the same to you, I think. I heard you screaming like it, anyway.

It isn't like a normal pain. <CHARNAME>, it's on the inside, like my bones made a little dagger and it won't go away.

According to her joining dialogue <CHARNAME> suffers from some kind of amnesia and apparently the experiments/tortures involved doing something with their brains. And everyone involved already considers Irenicus to be a complete monster.

abdel wrote:
The rape would be just extra... also, Imoen had a private cell, as opposed to Minsc and Jaheria being there. Maybe Irenicus wanted some privacy? Just a guess.

I think he may have tried to see if she can get his feelings back.

Jazmin wrote:
I think assuming what the protagonist did or did not go through is a tricky situation. There is no concrete timetable for how long the party was in Chateu Irenicus, and there isn't much to go on as to what the PC went through, other than the knives you see in the beginning sequence and the magical stuff. As someone who usually plays a PC who has severe PTSD, I don't like it when the horrible stuff she likely went through is trivialized in relation to someone else's trauma.

How do you play a PC who has severe PTSD? How does it work technically?

Anyway, the only PTSD that is allowed is PTSD from rape. If you have PTSD from rape, then your feelings are extremely important because people were conditioned for it by rape awareness campaigns.
If your PTSD isn't from rape but for example from being kidnapped, kept in slavery in horrible conditions and you get mutilated, then you're a target of ridicule because you're a "whiner".
Or if for example you're all messed up because you had a nightmarish childhood and adolescence thanks to your alcoholic father - then they will hate you, mock you and write stories where you get killed horribly.

Jazmin wrote:
Also, since my PC is an attractive female elf, it would not make sense for Irenicus to have taken an exclusive interest in Imoen but not her, especially when it's the PC's soul he is fixated on.

It's because BG2 is an NPC-centric game, not PC centric.

TCDale wrote:
I think also that Irenicus would have likely "sped up" his efforts to break Imoen in Spellhold. He used her specifically as bait to get the PC to come to him, so he knew he had a finite amount of time to break Imoen and do the ritual to steal her soul. Maybe the PC showed up in 2 weeks, maybe 2 months, who knows ? But Irenicus knew the PC would be coming, and that he had to be "done" with Imoen before then. So that may have added some urgency (and some extremeness) to his techniques.

His techniques were already extreme. Also, why would it be necessary to break Imoen?

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:55 am 
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Despair wrote:
If your PTSD isn't from rape but for example from being kidnapped, kept in slavery in horrible conditions and you get mutilated, then you're a target of ridicule because you're a "whiner".
Or if for example you're all messed up because you had a nightmarish childhood and adolescence thanks to your alcoholic father - then they will hate you, mock you and write stories where you get killed horribly.


I'm not sure where you're getting this. PTSD is recognized from a lot more sources, both technically and in the media, from more than rape. Even just on TV, I've seen it from experiencing violence, from witnessing violence (especially death or violence towards a loved one), kidnapping, and emotional abuse.

Now, I'm in the US, so maybe we are more considerate about people who have undergone bad things than people in Poland?

Despair wrote:
His techniques were already extreme. Also, why would it be necessary to break Imoen?


Well, two things that are suggested in the game, if I recall:

1) To refine/perfect his techniques before moving on to PC
2) To get a divine soul for Bodhi (both Bodhi and Irenicus suffered the same curse, thus would need the same 'cure')

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