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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:40 pm 
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TCDale wrote:
This just begs for a modification where if Imoen dies, she's perma-dead.

Of course, that would make the game (and the romance) significantly harder.... :D


Yes! Although...I feel that if I let somebody die, I have made a tactical error anyway, and need to go back to try again.
So it probably wouldn't change much for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:34 pm 
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Sorry if its an off topic but (there always is something) I couldnt find anything related to the post
What I'm particularly interested in the mod is the taint.
Ok so we now that the PC struggles with the taint there is somewhere deep in his soul the evil form of Bhal, now, all children of Bhal have some pleasure in killing.
Sorry for not giving exact quotes, I played the BG trilogy and the feeling is that you should be on constant guard from your inner darkness - (although if I was a DM it would be much darker )
Now what I was missing in the mod is that the original Imoen is interested in death. (due to the torture) In the spellhold (I'm sorry I don't have the English BG so be tolerant if I misspell any key locations its hard to undo translation ) Itenicus openly says that he opened the darkness in Her. In the dungeon she feels so weird. Look at it from your point of view. You travel for some time with Khalid ad then you see his body, (what reaction has Imoen Apathy not eaven a a little sorrow , and then that weird dialogue with Jaheira ) That's my twisted mind at work, but in my opinion the experiments unlock some dark passions, that she as a person hates. Imagine once when you seen blood you were scared repulsed with the site, now you feel its calming or nice, your memories disagree with your feeling.
In the dialogue, when she tells the PC about the torture, when she kills the dwarf, it just was asking for a little statement... "And I liked it"(No need for actual rape since the rape atempt would be horrible but from Irenicuses point of view, you feel the bhal taint growing you now how it makes her feel just push her to kill somebody in a gory way she is a good girl but she is like a drug addict )This could also solve same problem with hers Sexuality (No one but the PC would truly understand her pain, and the inner conflict, like the main character in Interview with a Vampire, he needs, craves for blood, but he hates drinking it)
The taint should show same how "Since it is now more opened then before" Since the essence should lead bhals children to killing each other, she could some times act out of character towards the PC, and then notice it.
Since she has considerable less essence then the PC its only the urge tu not be nice, and for conflict.
(As I mentioned I don't have the English version so it is easy to see the original line of character and the changed one) In the original Imoen is interested in sick things, death and all that, it feels like she takes some joy out of seeing death. This could also result in some dark passions (dialogue options for evil charters, to further throw pour twisted Imoen into the darkness )
If not an active murder she may have the urge to see death
(Lyrics to Vicarious by tool)
"'cause tragedy thrills me
Whatever flavor
It happens to be
Like:
"Killed by the husband"
"Drowned by the ocean"
"Shot by his own son"
"She used the poison in his tea
[and / he] kissed [him / her] goodbye"
That's my kind of story
It's no fun til someone dieson't look me at like
I am a monster
Frown out your one face
But with the other
Stare like a junkie"
...

Irenicus did not have too be all cruel to Imoen, he wanted to implement in her that waching death is "good" for her. So if I was a twisted Mage
I would reword her if she fallowed the taint and torture her if she did not.

Not much is needed to add to the mod in order to make the Taint more crepe, like form time to time (plenty of gore stories in the game the skinner, Viconias stories Korgan's, and so on)"Imoen seems to listen with attention When you notice she goes out of earshot".
Moreover Imoen acts strange some times, like asking Hard questions to the PC and then makes a joke of it all...

From what I remember she is able to be resurrected because her essence is sealed away but why not make a conversation of it all in the mod...
For example maybe due to some trauma part of essence form Imoen got sucked to our char so too be able to help her, remember Gorion was a powerful wizard, and he was not alone, maybe he had a plan to raise 1 bhalspown properly and slowly with no blood spill seal the essence in his "child" candlekeep was founded by the prophet, and what would be the best place to try to fool the prophecy ?, Some deep part of us looks like Imoen and Bhall says something about our soul acting strange... and the PC being an abomination of its kind, so maybe we ware experimented on much earlier, on the pretence of lessons.
Maybe the other way around Imoen helped the PC for example the PC was near death and sacrificed a big part of her essence. (Sarevok is also possible to resurrect ).
So the PC is near death and Imoen gives a part of her essence to give us life, the essence is not really used so the scar and all of the taint goes deep, thus Imoen is more of a nice person, and the taint goes out as petty mischief.
More over since Imoens taint is not developed it can be compared to a young plant, so the small part from Imoen grows in the PC making him much stronger. (Just a concept)

Since it is my first post , I must say that the mode is the thing I really was looking foreword to. And the job done is simply superb.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:47 pm 
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I don't want to spoil things too much, since I like surprises and want people to have a fresh playthrough of the mod, but I will say that while I'm not taking any special effort to make the Taint 'creepier' -- the way I write Imoen, she's got a more adult tone and the Taint is the core part of a conversation or two.

(Of course, anyone who's read Crumbling Down ought to expect that, huh?)

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:22 pm 
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Thumbs up to you, Siarczan. Your post was a little long, but seems very well thought out. I personally would love an option to change Imoen's outlook toward evil and embracing the taint, but I suspect that that would require a great deal more work on T.C.'s part. With regards to Sarevok's resurrection, he can be raised because A: he has no taint anymore, and B: you or Imoen gives him a small chunk of taint-free soul. Apparently in Forgotten Realms souls are infinite, (at least according to Azure Bonds) and Sarevok is actually quite correct when he states that it will not harm you unduly. I like the idea of prior experiences explaining Imoen's ability to be raised though.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:53 pm 
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The topic at one point drifted away to discussing why it was the anonymous duergar that did rape Imoen instead of ... well .. Irenicus himself.
I think (to me at least) this is perfectly logical.
In order to 'destroy' Imoens mind he needed to be what I call "the perfect dominant alpha villian".
If he would have actually raped her himself ... he would have lowered his own 'level' to be some kind of instinct-driven animal. Actually, it could have even happened that Imoen felt somehow pity for him.
All of the torture and stuff will only work, if the executor of the torture itself is untouchable, far above everything else. Only then will the (imaginary) mantle of fear work.
Other than that I think it would have been a lot out of character. Irenicus never ever in the game showed that he was interested in anything else but power. Except maybe for the ellesime part, but that was way before he turnted to what he is in SoA. And it actually seemed like he did really love ellesime once, so it would be even less understandable why he should bother about anyone else. errr, whatever, you get the idea.

Btw this is my first post here.
I'd like to thank everyone who helped making the imoen mod such a great stuff as it is. I really wished it would have more 'material', but I heard the work is still in progress, so lets see what happens during the next months.

I got a lot of experience with role play game modding but never actually touched the infinity engine. Sad thing. I wish I could help. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:05 pm 
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Plus Irenicus is clearly so numb to all things at that point in the story that he probably couldn't if he tried. Remember that he didn't even feel negative emotions like hate until he stole your soul.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:20 am 
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Quote:
The topic at one point drifted away to discussing why it was the anonymous duergar that did rape Imoen instead of ... well .. Irenicus himself.
I think (to me at least) this is perfectly logical.


I disagree and I'll try to show you why ;)

Quote:
In order to 'destroy' Imoens mind he needed to be what I call "the perfect dominant alpha villian".
If he would have actually raped her himself ... he would have lowered his own 'level' to be some kind of instinct-driven animal. Actually, it could have even happened that Imoen felt somehow pity for him.


to me all Irenicus needed to do to was to "focus" Imoens hatred, he says so himself I think when he says "perhaps her childish nature hid the symptoms" or something like that. Irenicus couldn't give a toss how his image was,that wasn't very important all he wanted was that Imoen was aware of suffering in a personal manner so that she subconsciously strengthen her bhaalspawn nature

I think I sort of get what your trying to say though (hopefully or else I'm just a plain fool) that if Imoen suffer from some sort of stockholm syndrome so that if she start to identify with her captor all his effort to make her feel hate would be for naught ( hopefully I'm not putting word in your mouth, if so I'm dreadfully sorry) but I still think most people don't actually start identify with their captor and that Irenicus is aware of that and thus he commited the rape himself. I mean his dryad concubine did after all say "he has touched you as he touched us" didn't they?

Quote:
Irenicus never ever in the game showed that he was interested in anything else but power. Except maybe for the ellesime part, but that was way before he turnted to what he is in SoA. And it actually seemed like he did really love ellesime once, so it would be even less understandable why he should bother about anyone else. errr, whatever, you get the idea.


actually to me this is what makes him an excellent villain (and an immensely disturbing one) if you look at it all he is doing is sort of sexual isn't it?
in the final battle when he is talking to Ellesime he says " I, I do not remember your love Ellesime, I have tried to recreate it to spark it anew in my memory but it is gone a hollow dead thing for years I clung to the memory of it, then the memory of the memory and then nothing" this is what he is trying to do with both Imoen and the dryads, recreate his lost love. He is even so far gone that he tries to clone Ellesime all to spark his love anew (remember the girl in the room next to Khalid? I think there is a mod that restore her to Ellesimes paper-doll, someone might know more about this though.)

anyway these are just my two cents I don't think there is a right or wrong answer though as part of bg2 charm is that it leaves a lot ambiguous

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:46 am 
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Zwiebelchen wrote:
The topic at one point drifted away to discussing why it was the anonymous duergar that did rape Imoen instead of ... well .. Irenicus himself.
I think (to me at least) this is perfectly logical.
In order to 'destroy' Imoens mind he needed to be what I call "the perfect dominant alpha villian".

Except that he already destroyed Imoens' mind before the game begun. Just read the dialogues in the dungeon.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:40 pm 
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Quote:
Except that he already destroyed Imoens' mind before the game begun. Just read the dialogues in the dungeon.


I agree, I always felt that most of the torture was done in chateu Irenicus we see some evidence of this when he say "I won't let you leave , not when I'm so close to unlocking your powers" she's broken in spellhold because Irenicus had just removed her soul, not because she was tortured more in spellhold

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"it is the very last inch of us..."

"but within that inch we are free"


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:34 pm 
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Nebulae wrote:
Quote:
Except that he already destroyed Imoens' mind before the game begun. Just read the dialogues in the dungeon.


I agree, I always felt that most of the torture was done in chateu Irenicus we see some evidence of this when he say "I won't let you leave , not when I'm so close to unlocking your powers" she's broken in spellhold because Irenicus had just removed her soul, not because she was tortured more in spellhold

Just as he removed PCs soul without any torture in Spellhold by simply using a magical ritual. Imoen could also be drugged to keep her docile in Spellhold.

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